Talk:Dark Seldarine
Newer edits Hello Saya222. I noticed your new edits, and while they are surely well researched, it's excessive. This article is about the Dark Seldarine themselves, and has the purpose to offer a general overview of the pantheon. The history of the drow themselves doesn't really fit here, nor do the smaller details of what each deities and each of their faiths did. For example, we don't need to explain all the Crown Wars every time they come up, those details are better left to their respective pages (it's the whole point of the links).--Tsammarco (talk) 18:46, February 17, 2017 (UTC) :Dear Tsammarco, :thank you for taking care. I'll answer to your edit, please be aware, it'll be rather long. :This page is about the Dark Seldarine. This pantheon differs from all others. It's easy to incorporate this one in any campaign and session because it didn't seemingly grow from between random tree branches but has an actual history how it came to be. This is the reason why the sections grew long. :I'm aware that it is long but I had to keep in mind to keep it to the development of the whole pantheon. For example, while "How did Lolth, who is so unattractive manage to come out on top?" is a question left for the Lolth-page. "How did all others react?" is one belonging to the Dark Seldarine-page. You wrote about the Crown Wars. The details of the information "Sethomiir called Wendonai to counter Aryvandaar" belongs into the Lolth-page but putting this into conjunction with "The evil members of the Dark Seldarine-to-be gave power too but couldn't outrun her head start." belongs here. An information like Ghaunadaur's dark-elf-moon elf-foreign faiths persecution for example doesn't belong here. Also why was the section that described where the drow deities stood in 1372 DR deleted? That one described "What did Lolth do with her position of supremacy?" and how did the others react/carve out their niches? Which really should be mentioned here in the general Dark Seldarine page and not as part of the individual god pages. :The background for my edits is, that the first thing everyone knows when reading anywhere about the Dark Seldarine is "Lolth is the boss, the others oppose her". The questions will be "How did it come to this?" and "Why did the others allow it?". The individual Crown Wars shaped this development and the page to describe the general development by mentioning all gods and their general action should be this one. You can't expect readers to read this page and then go to (extremely) detailed history sections on other pages. For example, Ghaunadaur and his dark elf-moon elf persecution group are something to be mentioned in his page but that he and other gods provided support among others in the form of fiendish allies but didn't manage to outrun Lolth's headstart belongs if anywhere here. :Also this page had, and now has again, some legitimate issues. Whoever wrote it, centered the Dark Seldarine-history around Eilistraee and didn't care about the general actions of others. For example, "Eilistraee's following got mostly wiped out" is seen as more important than "the process and circumstances that allowed Lolth to come out on top.", which shaped the following history more than Eilistraee's breakdown. Furthermore, the entire page was cited by always citing whole books. One can't expect people to look through an entire book, especially not novels which do't have indexes like a sourcebook. Also some parts were simply wrong. A minor example in the timeline is that Lolth's attention was drawn before the First Flowering. I have also serious doubts about whether the authors cited correctly. For example, Eilistraee is described as the "patroness of Miyeritar", but Miyeritar isn't mentioned in "Evermeet: Island of Elves", Eilistraee isn't mentioned by name in Miyeritar related sections of "Lost Empires of Faerûn", let alone as a patroness of anything and "Demihuman Deities" says that Eilistraee had her major following there but no information about the size or importance. :Also, may I ask why you left the "War of the Spider Queen" section as it is? I intended to later cut it down because it exhausts itself in actions of individual drow but doesn't really mention, for example, the thought processes of individual deities. :Thank you again for reading and taking care of my edits :Best Regards :Saya222 ::This still is a general overview page, the nifty details don't need to be explained. You can and should expect people to follow links to other pages for details, otherwise every page on the Wiki would be bloated. ::Picking up your example: the Crown Wars don't need to be detailed each. Telling that the other deities too granted the help of fiends in their wars of conquest to try to retain influence is ok (I'll add it back and expand upon the happenings myself), but I had originally only mentioned Wendonai, because he is the one who eventually led to the taint of all the drow. As for how Lolth became #1, the details of it haven't really been hammered out anywhere. All we know is that it was a mix of the Sundering killing many Vhaeraunites, Eilistraee being in conflict with Vhaeraun and the Crown Wars (with her seducing the Ilythiiri rulers and powerful nobles) info which is already in the article. However, neither LEoF or DD bother or GHoTR to describe in detail how Lolth came on top after the Crown Wars. :::Dear Tsammarco, :::thank you for taking care. I'd love to try to answer to the problems. :::First, "how Lolth became #1". I cited p.52 of "Lost Empires of Faerûn". The page says that Wendonai got his seduction done and Lolth's church rose to prominence. Furthermore, later cited p.54 clarified that the "seduced important house" was the king's and that he was specifically favored. The motivation was to get Lolth an entire subrace under her. It's not really detailed, just one-two sentences, but it gives a good picture how it went on. ::::Wendonai spreading Lolth's corruption already is in the article, tho.--Tsammarco (talk) 20:27, February 18, 2017 (UTC) :::I'll write further below under each of your paragraphs to make it easier. ::If you want to say--for example--what Vhaeraun did after the descent, don't describe all the operations of his church, tell that they were successful and mention their greater successes and areas where they gained influence. If you add more info, I'll help you with copy-editing. :::Do you mean the "crystalized roles" under the heading "1372 DR"? I'd love to re-add that because it gives a picture about, "what kind of society did Lolth created with her dominance?", "what problems did that society have?" and "How do the other gods fit in there, what was their clientele like?". Because the only other action was it to ::::I've edited the article to add more of that (what each deity did, what success they gained, who their worshipers were). Before we edit again, specifically, what do you feel it's missing?--Tsammarco (talk) 20:27, February 18, 2017 (UTC) :::::Dear Tsammarco, :::::thank you for the quick reply. I edited but didn't undo because some references were weird. Like the one citing p.24-28 of Demihuman Deities for Kiaransalee's action on Threnody, while it is written only on p.23 or citing page 11, the one showing the regalia of the drow clerics, for Eilistraee. :::::First, the changes were mostly of correction nature. Really minor ones like Ghaunadaur taking intelligence from all sort of his worshippers and not only from oozes or Eilistraee battling only her brother, at least according to page 13 of DD. :::::I also added the roles of Ghaunadaur and Vhaeraun, because "patron" is a word used for people who sponsor, take control or at least lend their name to support a specific purpose, in their case expansion of territory. Do you have another source in which Eilistraee's role in Miyeritar is clarified? I'm asking this because DD just says her faith was strong in Miyeritar but without a clearly defined purpose she supported, you wouldn't call her a patroness without one. Also do you have access to "Drow of the Underdark" and "Cormanthyr: Empire of the Elves"? I don't but the sources are cited. I could perhaps borrow the former over the next days, though.Saya222 (talk) 20:34, February 19, 2017 (UTC) :::::Generally, I've seen deities worshiped by a people or a country referred as patrons of them. That's because deities answer to prayers, support their portfolios among those people, and so on. For example, to answer your question, Eilistraee's portfolio include beauty art and song, and--since Miyeritar had a cultural, artisitic and magical reinassance (a line which you removed)--it's fitting that they're called patrons. That's why I used that term for Eilistraee, Vhaeraun and Ghaundaur. There are some things that I restored, namely Miyearitar resisting, how the demons changed the nature of the war (because that's needed to understand the banishment), Ghaunadaur gaining some influence (because he did indeed gain influence in strife-torn regions). I don't have access to LP, but I don't remind Aryvandaar ever invading Ilythiir. :::::I changed the line about Eilistraee thwarting Vhaeraun's salvage effort, because it makes it sound like she purposefully kept her brother down while enabling Ghuanadaur and Lolth (which isn't true, as she's enemies to them as well, and as in Evermeet she talks about deities darker and more dangerous than Vhaeraun)--Tsammarco (talk) 21:44, February 19, 2017 (UTC) ::I was the one who rewrote te page, after BadCatMan tagged it for cleanup (the discussion should still be here), but by I didn't meant to imply that what happened to Eilistraee is more relevant than others. When I wrote that the crown wars had a great impact on the Dark Seldarine, and especially "Eilistraee", I wanted to say that the Crown Wars were especially damaging to her, but I admit that the wording that I used is def. misleading. As for the mistakes that you point out, after her banishment, Lolth's attention turned to Toril only after the moon elf entred the demonweb pits, she hadn't thought about Toril before that. Eilistraee being the patroness of Miyeritar should indeed be changed to "a patroness", tho (and DD says that her faith there was strong). :::My problem with Lolth's banishment was just the timeline. Lolth's attention was turned to Toril during the Dawn Age, which is why it doesn't belong under the First Flowering, written in Grand History p.10. It was why I broke down the Dawn Age into "War of the Seldarine" and "After War". ::::Will correct it soon.--Tsammarco (talk) 20:27, February 18, 2017 (UTC) :::::Thank you. You might have noticed, that I broke down the Crown Wars section again into the First, Second, Dark Disaster and Fourth without adding too much if anything to make it easier for readers to put the individual events into chronological order. Or do you think it is more confusing than helping and should be undone? Also I added Eilistraee's church's collapse under Dark Disaster as a downward trend, the idea was to leave the specifics of the fall to the actual Eilistraee-page. Do you think this is proper? :::::I deleted information like the fall into savagery of the Ilythiiri, something better served in Ilythiir's history than here, and also added the experimented iconography in the Second Crown War for this thing was under "Legacies of the Crown Wars". I also wanted to ask whether you have another source with these depictions. I ask this because the source I cited "Lost Empires of Faerûn" only talks about "the offended gods" and doesn't exclude Eilistraee. Furthermore, the idea of a good person tolerating her name to be abused to support a mass murderess like Lolth or being confused with someone like Kiaransalee who enacts, and thus abuses Eilistraee's name to support enacting, disproportionate - and often meaningless - revenge sounds weird to me.Saya222 (talk) 20:34, February 19, 2017 (UTC) ::::: I think it's ok to leave the new division in place. :::::LEoF doens't even mention Eilistraee in that section, so it specifically excludes her. Also, Eilistraee is CG, and in DD it is said that she is always careful to avoid pressuring her followers and to leave them freedom of choice/expression. She obviously doesn't support what you talk about, but offing on her own people definitely isn't her MO. I really doubt that the authors intended her to kill her own people. The info about the savagery is needed IMO, because it let us know the influence of the gods of the Dark Seldarine on Ilythiiri and explains why the banishment happened--Tsammarco (talk) 21:44, February 19, 2017 (UTC) ::As for the references that you mention, they referred to the whole paragraph, but I've now moved them around as to let you understand to which statement each reference is associated. :::My apologies, obviously I couldn't clarify the problem. The problem is that "entire books" instead of "individual pages that deal with the topic" are cited. For example, "Evermeet: Island of Elves". That one is a novel. It does have a chapter index but not one based on terms. In that book is written Lolth observed Toril, felt Vhaeraun, looked at what kind of land he patronize, saw Ka'Narlist preparing for war there, decided to make inroads into the dark elves for their ambitions and then came behind the relationship between the dagger and Ka'Narlist, she didn't sense the dagger and then found the mage. It's a very minor mistake but with "Evermeet: Island of the Elves, p152-156" being mentioned it'd be easier for anyone to look up and verify what is written on this page. ::::Will adjust this too, but in truth Lolth's attention didn't go to Toril before Kethryllia's arrival. It's in GHotR and DD too, and Evermeet still reflects it (Lolth only noticed Toril because she scryed Kethryllia). You are right about Ka'Narlist, tho, but considering how things went, I think that his mention is no longer necessary here--Tsammarco (talk) 20:27, February 18, 2017 (UTC) :::::I cut a large part about Kethryllia, information like her being a founder of a House was superfluous and Lolth did come up before her intrusion with the idea of gaining her divinity back, I'm sorry, I forgot the citation for that one.Saya222 (talk) 20:34, February 19, 2017 (UTC) :::Furthermore, you cited all six boos of the WotSQ-series as a reference. Are you certain that it is right? The only character I remember converting is Halisstra and that one turned back later. Also the Lolth-followers in these books are rather adamant i their faith. So telling that Eilistraee, Ghaunadaur, Kiaransalee and Vhaeraun gained influence in books in which especially the middle two hardly get a mention sounds too much like a stretch. This would be a good example where it would really help to have pages to look up mentioned. ::::I used the whole 6 WotSQ books as a reference because that initial paragraph referred to the whole WotSQ events. I've added CotSQ references to that. I couldn't add the pages, because I don't own those books anymore.--Tsammarco (talk) 20:27, February 18, 2017 (UTC) :::::Thank you for the information, I'll look through my books and add the references on finding.Saya222 (talk) 20:34, February 19, 2017 (UTC) :::::Thank you--Tsammarco (talk) 21:44, February 19, 2017 (UTC) ::You're right abot the WotSQ section, it should be downsized. I had initially left it more detailed because it directly deals with the death of the drow pantheon, but I'll cut the parts dealing specifically with what the mortals did. The part summarizing Lady Penitent can be left as is IMO, as it deals specifically with the drow gods themselves, and as I've tried to nail it down to the key events. Unless you think that it'd be more appropriate to add something more akin to what you wrote for the drow page. I don't think that this is the place to talk about what happened in Eryndlyn or Maerimydra beyond a mention, because this page is specifically about the deities--Tsammarco (talk) 00:53, February 18, 2017 (UTC) :::That's an opinion I share. That's why (see drow) was added. For how the drow reacted on the loss of the basis of their society on several levels, legal transition, secular-theocratic power balance, inter-religion violence, complete anarchy, and so on is better served by directing the link to that page and not leave it here. :::Thank you for reading this long and taking interest and care. I'll edit on Sunday, my apologies. :::Best Regards :::Saya222 :::Saya222 (talk) 19:55, February 18, 2017 (UTC) ::::In the end I was too hasty to undo your edit, my sincere apologies. I will help you with cleaning the text once you're done.--Tsammarco (talk) 20:27, February 18, 2017 (UTC) :::I've attempted to fix the issues that you pointed out. As I said, if you want to add more I'll help you with cleaning the text, but--again--try to leave the specific details to their respective pages.--Tsammarco (talk) 14:41, February 18, 2017 (UTC) :::After our last talk, I made further additions, corrected the time of Lolth's attention being turned to Toril, and added more specific refs for Eilistraee, Vhaeraun, Ghaunadaur and Kiaransalee gaining followers after the Silence (the one for Eilistraee is Sacrifice of the Widow, but I don't own it anymore so I can't tell the page. It's in the prologue, tho, I'm pretty sure of it). I also added a few more lines to describe the society that Lolth created after the Descent.--Tsammarco (talk) 21:27, February 18, 2017 (UTC) ::::I also made some additions, to be precise her goal. I think there is a difference between the drow suffering towards a specific goal, for example vengeance, and suffering for the enjoyment of someone. Of course, writing that forces the question "why do the drow allow this to themselves?" and so I also added the suffocating factor of mitigating change and thus shackling the drow to her by taking options from them. I also changed parts of Vhaeraun's section about his follower base to make it easier to contrast mother and son without increasing the word count. You certainly realized that I excluded the drow cities and the surface regions. The background is for example, in Menzoberranzan his faith was the growing organized opposition, but didn't yet hold real power or in Sshamath his church was special because it was legal and also tried to gain power by legal means. The simple statements "second largest following" and "largest on the surface" would suffice and more specific details would be for the actual page, in my opinion. Do you think that way too, or should the Forest of Mir and Cormanthor re-added? ::::The same for Ghaunadaur because Eryndlyn's cult sprung up more or less at the same as the other two and Llurth Dreir was the product of him winning against anyone else. Also the thought was to clarify why a rebel, who has real power to offer, didn't get many worshippers. :::::No, thinking about it, it's better to not get too specific here. I however added back that Ghaunadaur prospered in strife-torn places and where the other drow gods' presence was weak.--Tsammarco (talk) 21:44, February 19, 2017 (UTC) ::::Thank for always taking care of this ::::Best Regards ::::Saya222Saya222 (talk) 20:34, February 19, 2017 (UTC) Number of transformed drow It's only because that would interest me a lot, but in wich source is it stated, that somewhat around 20% of all drow were redeemed in 1379? I thought it is unknown how many were really redeemed. As far as I know (through the LP Series) it could be between some hundred and some thousand. (Historicus 18:21, 10 December 2008 (UTC)) :I cited three pages in "Ascendancy of the Last". The drow who were transformed were "Wendonai-taint-less" and/or "Eilistraee-worshippers". This is page 287. The next pages 302-303 gives us an information about numbers, hundreds. So "Number of all worshippers of Eilistraee=hundreds of drow". :I hope it answers your question. :Again best Regards and thank you :Saya222 Sources I am too lazy to pore through books, looking for page numbers, but most of the things mentioned in the Recent Events sections are from the War of the Spider Queen and Lady Penitent books. Wereguy2 08:54, October 10, 2009 (UTC) Eilistraee is alive post Sundering Eilistraee is alive post Sundering. In Ed Greenwood's upcoming novel, Spellstorm, it is revealed that: SPOILER ...Twas no easy thing, being the goddess of magic. A different deity than the rest, in a world so steeped in the Art, a divinity that had to care more for mortals, or embrace utter tyranny. And at the same time share the Weave - the Weave that was Mystra, as well as being so much more - with other deities, or what remained of them, like Eilistraee... SPOILER So, I've asked Ed Greenwood some questions about this: SPOILER 1)Q: Does that thought (the passage about Mystra sharing the Weave with Eilistraee) refer to the present time? A: Yes, that refers to the present time. 2)Q: Are Eilistraee and Vhaeraun separated again? A: Yes, separate again. 3)Q: Did she manage to survive to the events in LP like some speculated (in a fashion similar to how Mystra did, for example) and emerge again after the Sundering (or has the Sundering simply brought her back)? A: Mortals know only of a reappearance, post-Sundering; details to be revealed, perhaps, in the fullness of time (this now 100% confirms that Eilistraee is alive in the present time). 4)Q: Also, in what condition is Eilistraee now, and what are she and her followers doing (and -since I'd like to edit the FR wiki page about her- is she now a demipower, or retained her status of lesser power)? A: Current condition? Unknown to mortals (including power level/ranking); sorry. 5)Q: Finally, where is Qilué's soul currently (since we know that the Cescent Blade couldn't destroy souls anymore, given that Cavatina survived it). A: As for the soul you mention: also unknown. My bet would be on "a voice in the Weave" (there may or may not be more on this status, if not that particular soul, in future fiction, but it's too early to say for certain). QuestionsAnswers SPOILER This pretty much confirms that Eilistraee is alive and that mortals know of her reappearence, but we don't know about her current power/ranking (but we know that she is Eilistraee, the Dark Maiden again, and no longer Eilistraee, the Masked Lady). --Tsammarco (talk) 22:34, April 16, 2015 (UTC) Cleanup What should be done to cleanup this page? --Tsammarco (talk) 12:56, April 2, 2016 (UTC) :Mainly cleaner and simpler formatting, a more readable history, and some copy-editing and rewriting to remove talk of "recent" (which isn't valid with the wiki removed from the timeline). — BadCatMan (talk) 13:28, April 2, 2016 (UTC) ::Ok, I will work on it as soon as I find some time--Tsammarco (talk) 13:53, April 2, 2016 (UTC) ::Is this acceptable, or needs more work?--Tsammarco (talk) 17:37, April 3, 2016 (UTC) :::Much better looking, thanks very much. — BadCatMan (talk) 08:13, April 4, 2016 (UTC)